Smileys Revisited

[oldgranpa]

During our first "Smiley" evaluations in 2003, 2004, we mainly tried to understand the problem and how to reduce or eliminate it. Flyer's ramp modification came first and we did that to our 1G P3AT pistols with considerable success. But even doing an extreme ramp mod on my 1G P3AT did not completely eliminate smileys. I found that the sloppy MecGar magazine furnished with the P3AT was partly responsible, allowing the top round to slip forward and be hit with the feed ramp. Not everyone agrees with me on this point, but the problem continues with the 2G P3AT as-received OutOfBox. During the first evaluations we failed to make hardly any measurements of setback being done to the cartridge by a smiley. We did lots of pictures and some of those early pictures are shown below...

[oldgranpa]

Next, shown are typical feed ramp pictures with the 1G P3AT, with ramp mod on left, without on right...

[oldgranpa]

Then, in 2005, KelTec adopted a partial ramp modification on the new 2G P3AT, not as severe as we were doing on the 1G, but enough to eliminate the damage being done to the magazine follower after the last round was fired. Here's a picture of the 2G feed ramp, showing the half moon cutout..

[oldgranpa]

When I received my new 2G P3AT and fired it I was disappointed that it still produced small smileys. Again, I failed to make good measurements for setback being produced. I did do one measurement showing the setback was low enough to be acceptable. Reports of first tests with the 2G P3AT and attempts at magazine modifications are in the P3AT forum here http://ktrange.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=4539 . Pictures of my 2G smileys follow...

[oldgranpa]

Wanting to know the true effect of smileys and how the 2G P3AT compares to the 1G (unmodified), I obtained an unmodified 1G P3AT for some setback smiley tests. The results show that smileys with the 1G (unmodified) did produce severe setback. Here's a few pictures....

[oldgranpa]

I made a few more tests and measurements, then did a ramp modification equal to the mod on a 2G P3AT. Subsequent tests showed a significant improvement.. Legend and measurements for the following picture follow...

The .380acp cartridges just below the numbers are unfired, new, with no smiley, for comparison. Cartridges above the numbers are with the 1G unmodified P3AT. Cartridges below the new, unfired, show smileys with the modified feed ramp (equal to 2G) that I call my 1-1/2G P3AT. It's obvious that all ammo brands are not the same. Ammo brand and setbacks are:

1. Fed HydraShok, 90gr JHP, 1G, .009", 1-1/2G, .003"
2. Rem UMC FMJ, 95gr, 1G, .050" & .060", 1-1/2G, .007" .005"
3. Win BEB, 95gr flat nose, 1G, .020", 1-1/2G, .012"
4. Speer GD 90gr, JHP, 1-1/2G, no setback
5. Fed AmerEagle 95gr FMJ, 1-1/2G, .022"
6. Win USA 95gr flat nose, 1-1/2G, .004" & .010"
7. Rem GS 102gr JHP, 1-1/2G, no setback
8. Hornady XTP 90gr, JHP, 1-1/2G, .007"

I am saving all smiley cartridges from this test for firing with a chronograph when I have access to one. In the meantime, a few conclusions are:
A. The 1G P3AT unmodified produces severe smileys that could be dangerous someday.
B. A modified 1G (1-1/2G) P3AT feed ramp pistol produces marginal smileys, probably of no concern for safety.
C. The 2g P3AT still produces smileys but are within acceptable range.
D. The sloppy MecGar magazine is responsible for continued smileys but it's doubtful KelTec is concerned since the feed ramp on the 2G doesn't hit the follower anymore. It's obvious MecGar has no quality control or tolerances on their mags.

[Flyer]

There ya go, my friend.
Flyer

[markster]

OG, I'm getting about the same kind of setback on my SG P3AT as you are getting on the unmodified 1G P3AT. Looks like I'm gonna have to do a little work to it.

[oldgranpa]

hi, markster, very important....
please tell us more...what ammo brand, type, etc.?
and do you get a big dent or just the nicks on the sides of the bullet?

I found on the 2G P3AT that the half moon cutout on the ramp was probably deep enough, but KelTec left enough of the "ears" on the sides to cause nicks on the sides of flat nose bullets, as shown in some of the pictures above.

I had to grind off some of the "ears" on mine with the dremel to reduce that, and of course, re-polish the edges.

On the other hand, if that doesn't help, you may have received a really "loose" magazine with your pistol. Do the test I mention in the link above to see how bad it is. Just hand cycle a round, remove the magazine and note if the top round is pushed forward with its nose over the front of the magazine. It gets worse with a dirty pistol as the long ramp in the slide gets sooty. (I polished that ramp in mine too.)

Not much else you can do except tinker with the mag like I did trying to "tighten" it up. The steel they used is hard and stiff and doesn't bend very easy. I cracked one mag trying to tighten it in my vise.

Or you can just order several mags, from KT, or several online shops have them, and maybe you will get a tight one. I got one tight mag that way and it really helped. (Which proved to me that MecGar has no tolerance specs and no quality control.)

For those who care enough (like my good friend, Flyer) to read this thread...let me just say I didn't post all smiley pictures from this series, just the ones I had some setback measurements on. If you are bored with just shooting paper targets, get out there and try some smiley tests for a little fun.

And, BTW, if you have a 1G unmodified P3AT and are reading this, get help with a ramp modification before Murphy's Law gets you. Especially with some of the hot ammo in use.

Cheers,
og.......who gets bored shooting stupid paper targets.

[byron]

og, i believe i mentioned in a previous post that after the mod i still got just the tiniest nicks on opposite edges of the flat meplat wwb white box valu pak. i did not shorten the length of the ramp, just filed in the crescent to accomodate the nose of the bullet. that also effectively stopped damage to the follower. if you know which round nose solid suffers the worst deformation let me know. i will buy a box and test them in my gun.