The Case for JHP Ammo in Pocket Pistols

[Gungnir300]

I know this is an old discussion but I thought I'd throw in my opinion since I'm haunting the forums today.

A lot has happened in the last few years and there are better and better bullets out there. I'm not going to comment much on the expansion versus penetration debate because I think you all have covered it nicely. It's a trade off...we're all grown ups here and we know that fact. You can have both but you have to sacrifice something else to get both (by sacrifice here I mean get a bigger cartridge).

In my own experience, it seems that a bullet needs to be travelling about 1,000 fps to reliably expand. Now, that's not a magic number and I have no proof. I've even seen REALLY GOOD research that disputes that claim. But the fact remains that when we get out our chronograph and shoot various bullets through various test media, anything below 1,000 fps ± 50 fps doesn't expand reliably at all and anything above that range does. Anything in that range typically does well also but may suffer some.

As for bullets (and here I'm only talking about .380 since that is the only true pocket pistol I've tested bullets for), I've seen some good things from Corbon (I think someone already mentioned that). The specific bullet that was in the Corbon we tested was a Barnes TAC-XP I believe, and was called the Corbon DPX. That was a pretty good bullet that had what I considered adequate penetration and expansion. That same bullet was used in some Buffalo Bore loadings to good affect. I REALLY liked the BB TAC-XPs, but the bullet itself is a little light. Buffalo Bore also has some standard pressure and "+P" loads for .380 that did well but seperated. And as always, Winchester PDX-1 did pretty well but had a few expansion issues. We did not have good results with the very popular Hornady Critical Defense, although I think it is still a valid round to consider.

Having said all of that, I'm certainly not going to argue against FJM loads either. It's personal preference and shot placement is the key anyway. Violence of action is necessary in such a situation so shoot as well as you can, as fast as you can, until the threat is gone. That's easily said I know.

Finally, there was some discussion on page one about standing before God on judgement day and having to expain killing someone with a JHP when an FMJ may have stopped the threat without a death. I have a few issues with that idea. First and foremost, your was the last decision in that decision tree that cause someone to get shot (assuming you are the defensive shooter not the perp); therefore, according to my own understanding of the Bible and of God's will (as limited as that understanding may be) God will not be very concerned with your choice of bullets. What if the only way you had to defend yourself was an axe? Would God then ask you why you didn't use a crowbar to pacify the threat instead of lodging a few inches of steel in its skull? I don't think He will. The other issue I have is that it has been the case that a righteous defender of life has been sued by a surviving perp. I don't take life lightly, and I would never consider killing someone unless it was my only option, but why leave a witness if the witness means you harm in the first place? It wasn't your decision to be assaulted, and you have enough to worry about just trying to survive the encounter and protect yourself and your loved ones, don't worry about overkill. Bring violence on the assailant until the assailant is no longer able to assail!

Thanks!

[Stogies]

***Warning: This post is only my opinion!***

Ok, I guess I'll weigh in here.

Besides the fact that FMJ feeds more reliably and is cheaper to use, I will contend that it usually over-penetrates and might not be as effective to stop or neutralize a threat.

I know that Law Enforcement Agencies use (almost) exclusively JHP #1, for effectively stopping a threat (one shot stops) and #2, to limit liability of over-penetration (damage to property and people).

Now I don't have the exact info in front of me, but the military uses FMJ because of a number of reasons. One that comes to mind is that with FMJ, if the victim isn't dead, it can tie up valuable forces that would otherwise be after you. Another is JHP causes far too much tissue damage to repair in field conditions. There are other reasons, some of which I will address shortly.

I am not an avid christian but was brought up in a home where my father and both grandfathers were preachers. I have learned a lot and hold many biblical principals to heart. It is in my estimation that using JHP is both brutal and inhumane. Why you ask?

A scripture comes to mind, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." A BG may not survive my FMJ rounds if he accosts me but if he were to survive, he may see the error of his ways and change his behaviors. JHP may complicate his life greatly over FMJ. You may think he deserves it but change positions with him. If you were that bad guy would you want him using FMJ or JHP? I want to stop the threat but I do not want to harm him anymore than necessary (more tissue damage) after all, he is human just like you and me but has made some bad choices. God loves him just as much as anyone else.

Do you really want to stand before God on "Judgement Day" and have to defend your actions using HP's when FMJ would have done the job and this man possibly could have lived and found redemption? * (see side note)

I know this is not a view that has been discussed before but I would hope I never have to fire my weapon (I would if I had too) for the protection of myself or others and I for one do not want to regret using HP's and causing much more (massive) tissue damage when FMJ would have done the job. * (see side note)

*This is sort of, but not quite a moot point if the BG dies from my FMJ loads.*

To each his own opinions, what works for one does not necessarily work for others, but don't chastise a person for not conforming to your view of the world.


***Warning: This post is only my opinion!***

Wow, if I end up in Heaven and they really do talk about bullett designs there and such I would feel pretty swell about having gone there!

I don't expect I will ever have to shoot anyone, but should I need to I intend to use ammo that ends the threat as effectively as possible and reduces the risk of hitting some innocent guy behind the target. Hence I say, Hollow Points all the way. I will explain this to the Heavenly Father and I am sure he will understand.

Not trying to make fun of your religion here, honestly.

[banana380]

I believe what is most humane is whatever stops the threat most efficiently, and IMO that would be Hollowpoints.

If someone is attacking me, they have forfeited their right to survival.

It is not my call whether he will see the error of his ways, or go on to attack others. Let God sort them out.

[jayspapa]

I believe what is most humane is whatever stops the threat most efficiently, and IMO that would be Hollowpoints.

If someone is attacking me, they have forfeited their right to survival.

It is not my call whether he will see the error of his ways, or go on to attack others. Let God sort them out.

Very well said!!

[Gungnir300]

I agree with the sentament that they have given up their right to survival. They made the decision to threaten another human; therefore, they don't have the full capacity to choose life any more due to the fact that they have given another person the moral and legal right (in most cases legal in all cases moral) to decide if they live or die. In the world most of us would like to live in, a person who puts themselves in such a position must suffer the consequences and the more dire those consequences are the safer our world will be for innocent people.

I am a Christian and I am in full favor of having a heart of forgiveness. However, I don't plan on leaving a threat alive if such a threat should ever exist to me or my family. I'm not at all worried about my God judging me for defending my self with violence. Besides that, I've done much more nefarious things in my life than killing someone who attacked me (and I hope to never have to do that at any rate).