NEW BALLISTICS SECTION, PART 1

[oldgranpa]

Here in this thread are the original 24 wetpack test reports shown in the Articles Section. Each one is listed as a reply to the first report so just scroll down to the report you want to see.

Only members can see these reports and the old Articles Section reports will be deleted. This is for security reasons noted under Announcements. These reports are locked.

OG & Friend's Ballistic Test Results

01 - Explanation of Method
02 - Wet Pack Compared to Gelatin
03 - .38 Spec & .357 mag from Taurus 2"
04 - Follow-Up .38 Spec & .357 mag from Taurus 2"
05 - Short Barrel 9mm Hollowpoint Tests
06 - Follow-Up 9mm Tests with a Ruger
07 - Range Test with .32NAA Guardian
08 - Preliminary P-3AT .380 Wet Pack Report
09 - Final P-3AT Hollowpoint Expansion Results
10 - P-3AT Recommendations After JHP Testing
11 - JHP Comparison with the P32 and P3AT
12 - The "Lost" .45acp JHP Data Reposted
13 - More Expansion Pictures
14 - The Old Coots Collaboration (.380/P-3AT)
15 - Short Barrel Pow'Rball Wetpack Test
16 - Original WetPack Tests
17 - Makarov Ammo
18 - .38 Special making a comeback?
19 - Beretta Tomcat
20 - Wetpack Test with Russian Ammo for the 9x18 Makarov
21 - 32cal Handgun Wetpack Tests
22 - Final P32 WetPack Test with CorBon
23 - 22Magnum WetPack Test
24 - .25 is not "dead", yet!!
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[oldgranpa]

Explanation of Testing Method
I don't own a chronograph and can't afford ballistic gelatin (or the large refrigerator for it) so I try to test self defense ammo (JHP) using a wet pack of newspapers. Some sites recommend milk bottles full of water but that's a hard job and you usually only get one shot per jug. Plus, sometimes (for me) the jugs explode with high velocity ammo and you could get wet. Published data from many sites using gelatin are a good way to get a preliminary idea of what to expect, but your own personal handgun may give altogether different results. Barrel length, slide design and spring, or revolver type, cartridge and bullet type can really affect things.

Saw this on a shooting site long time ago, maybe the Calibers site, not sure. Soak a pile of newspapers, about 8 - 10", 24 hours min, in a small tub making sure all layers get wet as you add them to the water. Don't use magazines or might get erratic results from the slick paper. Also, don't use the slick newspaper ads, they don't wet good. You should add more water to the tub after the paper soaks it up (important) to be sure the paper gets good and wet.

Place the wet papers in a small cardboard box that just fits them flat and wrap with duct tape using a piece of 1/2" plywood for backing support. Leave the front of the box open so the papers are exposed. Stand the pack about 8 -10 feet away at your shooting range. I'm lucky to have a public range not too far from home. Try to get to the range within an hour so all the water doesn't leak out. Or take a jug of water with you and wet the pack down when you get there. You can even put a layer of denim over the pack if you want to. It doesn't make much difference, except with some of the +p+ stuff.

After you've finished firing the rounds you want to test into the pack, you can take it apart, note the size of the enlarged (wound) holes in the paper, measure the depth to the expanded bullet (I use a tape measure as I remove papers), and measure the bullet expansion with calipers. Then you can compare your results with published results for gelatin from websites like ammolab, firearmstactical, goldenloki, and others. I've found that expansion numbers are close to the same for gelatin but penetration in the wetpack is only about 2/3 that for gelatin. Multiply your penetration number by 3 and divide by 2 for a rough idea what gelatin would have been. You might even get the same results as goldenloki with the .32acp from a short barrel where some brands don't even expand!! Or .22cal from a real short barrel don't expand either.

The pictures posted below show a wetpack we shot full of holes, mostly .22cal hollowpoints that day. But a few 9mm JHP were also fired. The 9mm "wound holes" are largest about 2 to 3 inches into the pack where the petals on the bullet jacket are beginning to open. You can see that on the picture on the right. The .22hp's don't have petals so the holes don't enlarge.

The pack looks kinda sagged from lifting it off the range bench and dropping it on the tailgate of my truck. It's nice and flat when we first shoot it. Note (important): if you shoot 9mm and larger calibers in the wetpack you can't shoot as many holes as this picture shows. About 10 shots would be enough so bullets won't hit each other.

OK, now for a disclaimer. In no way do I claim the newspaper wetpack is a "ballistic", "FBI certified", "100% valid", etc. etc. method for testing ammo. I have not found a way to "calibrate" the wet paper, except shoot a 9mm FMJ round into the pack. If it goes all the way thru 10" of wet paper plus the 1/2" plywood backing, then I feel the pack is "valid" enough for me. And a 9mm FMJ will go thru it!! In past years I've been flamed for posting results without this disclaimer.

BTW, before anybody gets all shook up over the penetration numbers, I need to mention that newspaper wetpack penetration is only 2/3 that of "certified gelatin". Multiply by 3 and then divide by 2 to get a better feel for it. So 7" in wetpack is the lowest I accept for carry ammo in my guns.

Cheers, og

[oldgranpa]

Wet Pack Compared to Gelatin
The best comparison I can give you is for tests with the P32 compared to Goldenloki. Attached, I hope, is a chart showing comparisons for .32cal JHP. It looks like a "correctly made" wet pack gets about 3/4 penetration of gelatin (75%), while expansion is close to the same.
A "properly made" wet pack uses only the black print paper, all slick ads removed, no magazines, soaked loose in a tub overnight, then placed in a cardboard box the next morning just before going to the range,box about the same size as papers, not packed too tight. About 9" thick needed for most JHP's. OK to use duct tape to hold it together at the top and bottom end.The wet pack needs to be used withing an hour or so before too much water drains out and it gets dry.
Some use phone books. Whatever. I don't trust phone books but a famous gun (zone) writer told us on the other site we were all stupid, etc., and phone books in sea water were the way to go. Of course that guy tells everybody they're stupid.
Keep in mind all, this ain't no FBI approved test. So I'll not publish any of my results as "scientific". Thanks for the thought.
og

[oldgranpa]

With a .38 Spec & .357 mag from Taurus 605, 2" barrel
Range test using a sloppy wet newspaper wet pack and 4 different ammo types follows. Fired 4 rounds each and saved 5th round for setback/pull measurements due to recoil. No setback/pull seen on any brand. (Ammo is what I could find locally, so that's all I tested.)
Remington .357 Golden Saber 125gr. Best cartridge tested. Recoil very manageable. Average expansion 0.625" and penetration full 11" of wet pack stopped at plywood backing. These results equal FBI data for a 4"barrel on firearmstactical. This will be my carry ammo. OAL 1.5625".
Winchester .357 Silvertip 145gr. This is hot stuff and strong recoil. Would not want to shoot much of it (what to do with rest of 50 round box, too much recoil for me.) Average expansion 0.655" and penetration 10.5" in the wet pack. However, the petals tore off on several of the rounds as shown in the picture. This would be a killer (you) in a lightweight Sc/Ti snubbie and in +p it would be awful!!
Winchester .38special + p Silvertip 125gr. Very good ammo. And contrary to a lot of old reports (ammolab) all rounds expanded equal to FBI test data. Average expansion 0.547" and penetration 10" in the wet pack. Recoil a tad less than the Golden Saber .357. OAL 1.4687" is good in the .357 chamber.
Winchester .38special "USA" whitebox FMJ 130gr. This will make a nice target/practice round. Low recoil. Penetration full 11" of wet pack and into the 1/2" plywood backing. One round went thru the plywood and gone. Recovered bullets in photo measured .356"max. Cartridge OAL 1.531" very good.
All spent cases looked good with no cratering of the primers. The pistol functioned fine, no problems other than my POI needs to be better. Photo of results below.
And BTW, initially I got a box of "WinClean" 125gr. .38 jacketed soft point. But took it back due to this stuff is too short OAL compared to others. It measured 1.4218" OAL which actually is less than SAMMI recommended minimum of 1.425" So don't buy any of this for use in your .357 revolver, bullet will have to 'jump the gap'. It might be OK in a plain .38special but not .357. I didn't like the exposed lead on the bullet either.
Cheers,

[oldgranpa]

Article 4 Follow-Up .38 Spec & .357mag from Taurus 2"
Did my final wetpack tests with the Taurus 605 2"snubbie yesterday, including the new Speer .38spec 135gr+p GoldDots.
Photo below with all results.
The Speer is OK but I'm not overly impressed with it. A little more penetration but not a whole lot better than just plain Win .38spec 125gr+p.
The GoldenSaber .357magnum is still the best in my revolver.
Make your own decision, remember the wetpack is not "ballistic", "FBI certified", and all that. Valid enough for me.
og

[oldgranpa]

Article 5 Short Barrel 9mm Hollowpoint Tests
I'm posting this not to say the PM9 is better than any other short barrel 9mm, but just because I have one and decided to see what it would do with standard pressure JHP ammo. So here is my review.....
Finished the hollowpoint tests with my Kahr PM9 using my "unballistic" newpaper wetpacks. A photo is attached for your ammusement, not to be considered 'certified' data for choosing what to carry in your short barrel pistol.
The penetration was about equal in all cases, 7 - 8" in the wetpack which meets minimum for standard pressure ammo. (Wetpack penetration is about 2/3 what gelatin gets.) Two wetpacks were used and averages are based on 5 rounds of each ammo.
The Golden Saber was kinda strange with the main expansion being the brass jacket petals with the lead sticking up like a flower blossom. The jacket on the GS is heavy brass and is almost half the weight of the bullet. I bent the petals out on one bullet and they reach to over 7/8"!! This would make a large wound as the petals opened. The other brands have only a thin copper jacket and the petals tear off in some cases. No petals broke off on the GoldenSabers.
The biggest surprise was the Winchester 115gr. 'Personal Protection' USA white box. I was really impressed with the expansion and penetration of this low cost ammo. For $11 at WalMart you get 50 rounds, which is cheaper than the $15 I paid for 25 rounds of GoldenSaber. And the Federal is $12 for a box of 20.
The Federal 135gr. 'Personal Defense' also looks very good with consistent expansion and penetration from all rounds fired.
I'm not too impressed with the Speer 124gr., penetration was 8+" but low expansion. The Speer 124+p GoldDot does better in my G19 but I didn't test it in the PM9.
For personal carry in the PM9 any of the first 3 rounds look good. I'll probably carry a mix of all 3.
Cheers,
og

[oldgranpa]

Article 6 Follow-Up 9mm Tests with a Ruger
Here are some very limited tests with a Ruger P95 to compare with the PM9 above.
A friend had a round of "police" ammo used by the local LEO's and kept bothering me to test it in the wetpack. I agreed if we could use his pistol since the round was marked Federal +p+.
I ain't shooting no +p+ in my pistols. I think the ammo number is P9HS3G1, anybody know if that makes sense?
So I fired a few other rounds to compare with the police round.
As far as I'm concerned the +p+ failed miserably (for civilian use). Reason, the velocity is too high for plain wet paper and comes apart. The FBI uses 4 layers of denim in their tests and also must pass other barrier tests that we may never encounter. That will slow a hot bullet down and still get expansion and penetration in gelatin.
But bare gelatin, wetpaper, waterjugs...it's gonna fragment.
So, if you live down south here, ain't nobody wearing 4 layers of denim. And most BG looking characters are goin round with only a t-shirt. Don't think getting some "police" ammo is going to help you. Based on this unballistic test, it's crap for what we might ever need it for. Stick to the basics and use the best factory ammo available.
Sorry, I didn't include a Speer 124gr+p round, it does good in my Glock and that's the hotest round I'll use.

[oldgranpa]

Article 7 Range Test with .32NAA Guardian
I'm posting this "Unballistic" test here for lack of a better place.
But mainly to say...I recommend you stay with the P3AT, lighter weight, more ammo brands available, lower cost, more friendly to shoot.
The .32NAA Guardian is heavier, costs more, and is not very friendly to shoot, not a ladies gun. Also only one brand of ammo to date from CorBon, hot stuff, really high velocity, and that makes for problems testing it. My first range test in just a plain newspaper wetpack, bare paper, all the bullets fragmented with the petals stripped off. Discussion with CorBon said wetpaper too severe and water jugs too severe. Well, never heard of that before, so just to be fair about it I ran more tests. Wetpack with denim cover, wetpack bare, 2 jugs with homemade Knox gelatin covered with denim, 3 water bottles, and the old 55gal steel drum at the range.
The Knox gelatin test was a flub, the bullet went thru the first jug and stopped in the second jug, rupturing the jug. Petals of bullet torn off, minimal expansion of remaining lead. The water bottles were even more spectacular, all 3 exploding with water flying everywhere. Bullet ended in third jug fragmented. Two shots thru 55gal drum went clean thru both sides, not bad if you like to shoot thru car doors. This bullet also zips right thru a fat, dry phone book.
The wetpack test picture is shown below (in the photo 'newpaper' should read 'newspaper', but you can figure it out). With the denim cover the bullets held together fairly well with good expansion. In the bare wetpack, same results as the first time, complete fragmentation, velocity is really high. The denim is needed to slow it down. CorBon designed the round to shoot a BG with heavy clothes on, I guess!! Penetration was 7" with the denim cover which is barely adequate in wetpack.
My analysis, FWIW, CorBon has more homework to do on the bullet. The jacket is too thin and doesn't hold together well in this high velocity round. Wish Winchester would make this round with lower velocity and Silvertip bullet. Then it would be worth something. For now, not what I expect.
Anyway, I'm trading the .32NAA with my dealer for something else. For those of you considering the .32NAA, don't, stay with your P3AT.
og ....just another 'unballistic' report from og.
p.s. forgot to mention, the dental pick in the photo is what I use to clean the wet paper off the bullets.

[oldgranpa]

Article 8 Preliminary P3AT .380 WetPack Report
While at the little range today I managed to include some very limited hollowpoint expansion tests with a newspaper wet pack.
Picture included. These results are by no means conclusive and I'll do more later. But the numbers were not what I expected and contradict what we've heard from the mighty Marshall. The Speer GoldDots were pitiful and the Silvertips, surprise, did well. Numbers are:
Speer JHP failed to expand 3 times out of five and 1 of the five was only partial. The 2 that expanded penetrated 6" in the pack. The non-expanders went 9 - 12". Best exp. 0.468"
Silvertip JHP failed only 1 time out of 5 and the 1 was partial. Expanded ones penetrated 6 - 8". The partial went 9". One round not recovered went out side of pack at 8" after leaving a tremendous 'wound' hole, so assumed it expanded (poor aim).
Expansions were 0.468", 0.500", 0.500"
Both Speer and UMC FMJ rounds penetrated 10 -13" into the pack.
No FTE's with the Winchesters like the last time since the pistol was good and clean when they were fired and chamber was still smooth. So this changes what I think about Silvertips!!

[oldgranpa]

Article 9 Final (not really) P3AT Hollowpoint Expansion Results
Our range reopened today and we got a break in the weather. So I was able to complete the hollowpoint expansion tests with a good, really wet, newspaper wet pack. So these results are with five different brands. In honor of Midiman, I just went ahead and spent $75, don't know what to do with the left overs. The picture should be self explanatory. Probably the only thing I don't agree with Flyer on is CorBon JHP's. Just like he has bad luck with Remington, I have bad luck with CorBon. Same bad results with .380 that I had with .32. But retesting the Speer was better. Win Silvertips still best expansion but lower penetration. Remember, wetpack penetration is about 2/3 that of gelatin.
Oh, by the way, there were no malfunctions with my P3AT during the entire test!! Checked for smileys along the way and none until after the test (the pistol was dirty) with some FMJ's...picture and comments down below.
og