NEW BALLISTIC SECTION PART 2

[oldgranpa]

Part 2 Index

This is Part 2 of our "Og and Friends Ballistics Tests", adding 18 more test reports of interest. We hope this information is helpful to you, but remember, it is by no means "certified", "FBI approved", or perfect. Neither is any other test information you might read or hear about and you, and you alone are responsible for your own choices. So do some evaluations of your own, practice, and choose reliable ammo and firearms. Here's the index, just like Part 1, scroll down to the Article you want to see.

Article 25 - The Second .25acp test
Article 26 - Testing .22magnum ammo with 3 handguns
Article 27 - S&W 351PD .22magnum v.s. other calibers
Article 28 - Another test failure with .380 Pow'rBall
Article 29 - Some more .380acp with P3AT
Article 30 - Sig P232 .380 Phase One
Article 31 - Sig P232 .380 Pahse Two
Article 32 - Fly&Og DPX .380 test
Article 33 - Fly&Og Revisit DPX with GS
Article 34 - NAA Guardian 380 wetpack
Article 35 - Simulated "Bone" wetpack
Article 36 - "Bone" Test with the SeeCamp
Article 37 - Ballistic Pony with 30-30
Article 38 - Mauser rifle wetpack
Article 39 - The .44magnum wetpack test
Article 40 - A 3 gun high caliber wetpack
Article 41 - Wetpack with the AR-15 rifle
Article 42 - The .357sig wetpack & Chrony

Cheers,
og

[oldgranpa]

Article 25 - The Second .25acp test
The following wetpack test comparing the top three .25acp pistols shows about equal expansion and penetration using Hornady JHP ammo. Three FMJ brands were also tried. All three gave barely adequate results and should not be considered as "One-Shot-Stop" handguns. With placement and rapid fire however, they will produce lethal results for self defense.
Functioning of all three pistols was adequate except for the Colt which always failed to eject the last round after firing and the cartridge hung in the breech.
Since safety is a concern, neither the Colt or Browning should be carried with a round in the chamber since to load a round requires that the pistol is "cocked" and they fire with a spring loaded "striker fired" mechanism. Only the Beretta can be safely carried since a round can be loaded in the chamber with the tip-up barrel and the hammer safely lowered that way. Also, the Beretta had no malfunctions and neither did the Browning Baby which would be second choice for CCW. Pictures of the tests follow and following are more .25acp comments.

M&S in their third book, "A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition",2001, on page 241, Chaper 27, state: quote--"We have not included any shooting incidents involving either .22 Long Rifle or .25 ACP. Both of these loads are dismal stoppers, and including examples of successful stops with them would give a false sense of confidence that is totally unjustified."
Agreed, for over 7 yds, but then on page 299 .25 ACP is listed in Chapter 29 as having 23-27% OSS with up to 10.9" penetration and over 2000 shooting data points. Hardly data to be ignored and seems to contradict why it's not included in Chapter 27.

an excerpt from the following shows .25acp is a lethal caliber and not the "dismal" cartridge implied by M&S.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/guic.txt
"McGonigal and colleagues at the University of Pennsylvania Medical Center studied firearm homicides that occurred in Philadelphia,..........
In Philadelphia, handguns most often used: In 1985, of 91 homicides 44% .38 caliber revolver 19% .25 caliber pistol 14% .22 caliber revolver 14% .32 caliber revolver 3% 9 mm pistol 2% .357 caliber revolver"
Comment: Since small .25acp pistols were banned for import and labelled SaturdayNightSpecials, it appears from the above that that the lowly .25 is a lot more lethal than we've been led to belive.
and here is an article on how to use a 25 caliber mousegun...
http://www.geocities.com/gunversatio.../mouseguns.htm

[oldgranpa]

Article 26 - Testing .22magnum ammo with 3 handguns
Curiosity is the mother of immagination and it got the best of me on the .22Magnum ammo available. Article 23, Part 1, indicated that excellent penetration and tumbling of some rounds could be achieved with even a short barrel NAA mini.
On another site, someone even got expansion with a 2" barrel NAA BlackWidow from Winchester Supreme JHP. My second test confirmed the keyholing and tumbling with a short barrel, leaving a severe wound profile.

Here is my third test with more brands of .22WMR ammo and including a 3.5" barrel derringer (2.5" effective length barrel). The picture is made up from 2 wetpack tests to get that many bullets shown.

Conclusions:

1. None of the ammo brands expand with the NAA mini short barrel revolver but have good penetration, up to 8" (equivalent to 12" gelatin). Best buy seems to be the Winchester 45gr Dynapoints, which are really just a solid copper plated bullet with a dimple (not JHP) , but good keyholing.
The Win Supreme just stripped the jacket leaving the unexpanded bullet seen in the picture. CCI TNT fragmented with one piece of lead showing a little expansion. CCI GoldDot good keyholing but discontinued and hard to find.

2. With the HighStandard DM-101 derringer, Winchester Supreme 34gr JHP had good expansion, .445", and penetration, 7" . The CCI TNT fragemented. Good keyholing with GoldDot and Dynapoint.

3. As expected, the 4 1/2" barrel Heritage Revolver produced expansion (except for CCI plain JHP) like the first test.
The Winchester Supreme expanded to .501", with 7" penetration. Expansion with TNT was only .303", not a good choice for a handgun.

So, .22magnum has limited application for selfdefense with a short barrel handgun. If you want to carry one for backup, consider the NAA mini-mag and load it with just plain Winchester 45gr Dynapoints from WalMart. A longer barrel is required to get expansion from the other brands of JHP and that costs more. Winchester Supreme did well in both the HS derringer and Heritage.
You might could carry the HS derringer, weighs only 9.2oz, but it's hard to find one. Cobra makes a "long bore" .22Magnum derringer, but the one I tried had a terrible trigger pull, 15lb or more, can't recommend it.

Hope this helps.

og

[oldgranpa]

Article 27 - S&W 351PD .22magnum v.s. other calibers
Finally found an ultralite Smith&Wesson 351PD .22magnum revolver. Only 1 of 5 distributors my dealer tried had one, this revolver is rare. I wanted black rubber grips but the only one available has the cocobola grips shown in the photo. I might just put laser grips on it later. Advantages of this revolver over a NAA mini are 7 round capacity, NAA holds 5, and ease of reloading by swinging out the cylinder, NAA has to be disassembled to reload. Also, the S&W is a SA/DA while the NAA is SA only. The S&W has a true forcing cone with tight tolerance to the cylinder ports while the NAA has a visible gap (hold yours up to the light and can see the gap). This means velocity is higher with the S&W since the NAA will lose some pressure due to the gap. The 1-7/8" barrel is long enough to maintain the 1000+fps velocity of .22magnum rounds while the NAA mini drops below 1000fps (well, you could get the 2"barrel BlackWidow NAA that still has the gap and barely makes 1000fps). Advantage of the NAA mini is lighter weight, 5.9oz v.s. 10.5oz for the S&W and the NAA costs less. Taurus makes one that holds 8 rounds but is much heavier at 18oz.
So enough comparing, how does the S&W .22magnum compare to a KelTec P32 or a snubnose 38special? The next post shows a wetpack comparison of the three.

This wetpack test compares .22magnum using the S&W 351PD, 1-7/8"barrel, the KelTec P32 .32acp, 2.7"barrel, and the Taurus 85 ultralite 38special, 2"barrel. The photo shows bullets that were recovered, typical expansion and penetration.
Not shown are .32acp and 38special FMJ rounds which penetrated the 12" wetpack and kept going. This would be overpenetration in gelatin (>18") and not too good an idea.
While some .32acp JHP rounds got good expansion, like the 60gr CorBon, penetration was borderline. Federal HydraShok 65gr JHP has less expansion but adequate penetration.
The best 38special round was the new Speer GoldDot 135gr+p JHP with excellent penetration and expansion. A Winchester leadnose hollowpoint, shown last, (cheap) from WalMart didn't do too well compared to the others. Remington's GoldenSaber 125gr+p always expands the most with barely adequate penetration. (Adequate wetpack penetration is 7", equivalent to about 11"gelatin.)
Finally, the two .22magnum JHP rounds that show expansion have poor penetration. The other 22mag rounds shown with over 10" penetration make look small in comparison to .32acp and 38special. But what cannot be shown in the photo is the keyholing and tumbling effect these bullets exhibit in the wetpack, all the way to their full penetration. This will act like a little chainsaw as it cuts it way through. The CCI Maxi-Mag 50gr GoldDot bullet is over .5" long (.535") and produces the most severe wound profile of all. There was even a little expansion with one shown. The Winchester 45gr Dynapoint (copper coated solid, not JHP) is second best and is available at WalMart for $7/box of 50. The PMC Predator JHP didn't impress me.
So, while .22magnum is mainly a rifle round, some types do perform well out of a short barrel revolver. Aimed high on the thorax it would have a good chance of stopping a BG with multiple rounds fired. Should you carry one? The little NAA mini is what I call a church gun where you don't want it to show. I haven't decided where or how to carry the S&W yet since it's a little bulkier. But anyway it was a fun comparison.

Postscript..The S&W 351PD turned out to be a very inaccurate revolver, even bench fired POI was always way off. Traded it!!

[oldgranpa]

Article 28 - Another test failure with .380 Pow'rBall

flyandscuba's PowrBall wetpack test with .380caliber...

Well, after viewing OG's and Byron's work -- I couldn't stand it anymore. I took my wetpack in the garage and did a little "range work"

Thankfully, I have no neighbors on that side of my house -- only wetlands.

I fired four rounds of the .380 Pow'Rball through my P-3AT into the wet pack, Each round shed the copper jacket and the lead core penetrated 7-8" inches. Expansion of the lead core was minimal. What I pulled out actually appeared as a "lead cup" of almost the same diameter as the original bullet.

I wasgoing to try a .45 Pow'Rball through my PT145 and a .357 Sig. Pow'Rball from my M357 -- but figured I better not risk those retorts with my neighborhood.

Overall, I'm disappointed with the Pow'Rball from the P-3AT. I'll be picking up a couple of boxes of Golden Sabers ASAP.

Here's an example of the recovered lead core -- alongside the chambered round removed to show the smiley in the 380 PB. The smiley was notable to the polymer ball, but comparison of that cartridge with a fresh one indicated no "seating" of the bullet deeper into the case.

(Note: this test confirms the results that byron and I got. og)

[oldgranpa]

Article 29 - Some more .380acp with P3AT
The Last Crusade (Not Really)

This completes wetpack testing for the KelTec P3AT pistol that I started several years ago with the 1st gen AT. After 3 tests with the 1st gen and now 2 tests with the 2d gen, I have enough data to do a statistical analysis for a few of the more popular rounds.
Gelatin addicts demand a statistical report with their tests. Sometimes I'm amazed how they can get a statistic with only 1 data point, which is really all they get with a block of gelatin. The wetpack allows several shots in the same pack and with different ammo and different handguns, as the picture below shows for this test. Interesting is how the different barrel lengths respond to different brands of ammo. The Winchester Silvertip, for instance, expands too much with a long barrel and gets no more penetration than the short barrel. While the Hornady XTP doesn't develop enough velocity to expand well in a short barrel it penetrates well in the P3AT and expands and penetrates very well in longer barrel pistols. The Rem GS 102gr also seems to be a good all around choice.
A few statistics follow for the P3AT: (wetpack penetration is approx 2/3 gelatin)
Win ST, 13 tests, 6.6penet, mean, SD .88 and .520exp, mean, SD .025 equiv gel 9.9"
Rem GS, 8 tests, 7.56penet, mean, SD .85 and .574exp, mean, SD .014 equiv gel 11.34"
Speer GD, 6 tests, 6.8penet, mean, SD .37 and .463exp, mean, SD .029 equiv gel 10.2"
Fed HS, 5 tests, 7.8penet, mean, SD .4 and .479exp, mean, SD .002 equiv gel 11.7"

You should draw your own conclusions from these tests remembering the wetpack is a certified KTRange test whether the gelatin guys like it or not. Oh, BTW, a wetpack can be "calibrated", not by using a stupid BB, but by shooting 2 Speer GoldDot 135gr+p 38special rounds into the packs using a snub nose J-Frame . If they go 9" or more and expand over 1/2", then it's a good wetpack. That's how I do it and that's what I did and got on this one.

Note: Two FMJ rounds with the Sig P232 went 9+" and thru 3/4" plywood backing. The Hornady rounds stopped at the plywood with the Sig pistol. One Bersa FMJ went thru the plywood.

og.......off to other things

[oldgranpa]

Article 30 - Sig P232 .380 Phase One
This is Phase One (of two tests) of a Comprehensive .380acp WetPack test with the Sig P232 pistol. The results apply equally well to the Bersa Thunder 380, CZ types, and the Walther PPK, if those are the pistols you have. But not to pistols with barrels less than about 3.5", so that leaves out the KelTec and Beretta (Tomcat) short barrel pistols. You'll find data for them in my sig line link. I don't recommend either of those short barrel pistols for self defense.

First picture shown is a typical wetpack that I use. Note picture 4. with bullets showing 8" deep into the wetpack, CorBon 90gr, Rem GS 102gr, and Speer GD 90gr. Holes remaining are for bullets that went deeper. See the WetPack picture for details. Not being tested is Win SilverTip which is unsatisfactory, poor penetration. This was shown in the previous .380acp wetpack test.

Phase Two will be done as soon as I receive the rest of the ammo I ordered, Win SXT, MagTech FD.
I'll also include Fed HydraShok, there wasn't room in Phase One for it. I'll also shoot a few CorBon 90gr into it for a sort of "calibration" to compare with Phase One. Maybe in a week or two.

In the meantime, there is enough wetpack data now on the longer barrel now to do some recommendations: (Phase One)

BEST: Rem GoldenSaber 102gr 9 data points, .610"exp.avg, SD .020", 8.05"pen.avg, SD .37"

EXCELLENT: 1. Hornady XTP 90gr 6 datas, .514"exp.avg, SD .007", 8.83"pen.avg, SD .23"

2. CorBon 90gr+p 3 data points, .593"exp.avg, SD .002", 7.83"pen.avg. SD .23"

3. Speer GoldDot 90gr 3 data points, .537"exp.avg, SD .023", 7.83"pen.avg. SD .23"

UNSATISFACTORY: Winchester SilverTip....over expands with poor penetration (long barrel)

CorBon PowrBall....jacket and bullet fragment with very poor penetration**

**Note: in the short barrel P3AT, CorBon PowrBall does not expand at all, see Part 1 Articles.

TOO EARLY TO TELL: The Federal Hi-Shok 90gr (LEO ammo) did very well, fair expansion
and excellent penetration with only 2 rounds tested.

Granted, wetpacks are not exactly the same each time, but after enough of them a rough estimate of performance can be calculated. Some may argue the Hornady is best due to penetration always over 8" (equivalent to 12" gelatin). But GoldenSaber looks close enough.


og

[oldgranpa]

Article 31 - Sig P232 .380 Phase Two

Here are the final results for my Comprehensive P232 .380acp wetpack tests with the picture for Phase Two below. Phase Two required 2 wetpacks (5 Win SXT and 5 MagTech in second pack). My ratings for the cartridges tested look like this:

Best: Remington GoldenSaber 102gr JHP still the best expansion and penetration combination.
See Phase One report.

Excellent: 1. Federal Hi-Shok 90gr JHP with 4 data points, .506"avg exp, SD .010 and 8.25"avg pen, SD .25
Note this is a different design than HydraShok and is shown on Fed's lawenforcement site.

2. Hornady XTP 90gr JHP, with 8 data points, .516"avg exp, SD .010 and 8.5"avg pen, SD .45
this is a close second to the Fed Hi-Shok and only second place because it gets a strange
looking expansion. Maybe that is actually better. You decide. Just my opinion.

3. CorBon 90gr+p JHP, see Phase One report.

4. Speer GoldDot 90gr JHP, see Phase One report.

Acceptable: 1. Winchester SXT 95gr JHP, 8 data points, .589"avg exp, SD .014, 7.6"avg pen, SD .48

2. Federal HydraShok "PD" 90gr, 6 datas, .584"avg exp, SD .011, 6.9"avg pen, SD .34 (barely
acceptable)

Conditional: MagTech FirstDefense 77gr copper bullet, zero/partial expansion, 10+" penetration with 3 bullets
exiting the pack and assumed zero expansion.
(actually unacceptable, in my opinion, FMJ would do as good and a lot cheaper)

Unacceptable: See Phase One report.

[oldgranpa]

Article 32 - Fly&Og DPX .380 test

flyandscuba flew up here to N. Ala. this a.m. and we spent the morning at the range doing an exclusive set of wetpack tests to mainly check CorBon's new DPX in .380acp with 4 different pistols...the P3AT with 2.75"barrel, a Jimenex JA380 blowback same barrel length as the AT, a Sig P232 with 3.6"barrel, and a Seecamp LWS380 with 2"barrel. Enjoy!
og
pic 1... the 4 pistol wetpack
pic 2... main ammo tested

[oldgranpa]

Article 33 - Fly&Og Revisit DPX with GS
Posted on KTRange, 6-30-2006 by oldgranpa in the P3AT section.

FlyandScuba flew to N.Ala. today to do another wetpack test with me (oldgranpa). We compared CorBon's DPX with Remington GoldenSabre and Speer GoldDot this time. Included in .380acp were the KelTec P3AT, SeeCamp LWS 380, SigArms P232, and we threw in some 9mm with a Kahr PM9. With the P3AT, DPX and GS were equal. So those with GoldenSabre on hand can relax, it's good stuff.
You'll also see the results with a few rounds of SantaBarbara with the P3AT, hot stuff, good penetration, but no expansion as some may have speculated with the flat, exposed lead bullet.
Interesting, with the little 2"barrel LWS 380, the Rem GS gave the best performance (with no keyholing). However, that little pistol produced keyholing with much of the ammo tested which with the good penetration is excellent. Keyholing is a separate subject discussed in other places like the .22magnum mini revolver tests in Part 1.
Picture below shows our test results today.
By now everybody should be familiar with the ammunition shown, grain weights, etc. so those details are not shown.


og