The Kel-Tec Range

[oldgranpa]

byron and I decided to do a comprehensive wetpack test with .380 ammo. We shared the cost, byron furnished the CorBon Pow'rBall and had it shipped to me. I bought the Win ValuPak and the WinClean. I already had all the other ammo from the previous test. All the data is posted in this thread, one page at a time. I think midi plans to move it and other wetpack test data to the Articles Section. Keep an eye open for that.

Someone will ask did you compare the P3AT with anything else. Surprise! We did that.
And someone might say we should have used water jugs. Surprise, surprise!! Did that too.
Finally, what about smileys. Some of that there too.
scuba, FigNozzle, and midi will be especially happy to see the Pow'rBall results, even if it's not what they expected. Marshall was going to run the Pow'rBall test but his gelatin melted in the hot weather, or at least that's the excuse he gave. So our thread is the first test outside CorBon I know of with the Pow'rBall.
I'll let byron answer any questions about the ValuPak.

byron gets all the thanks for having the idea and encouraging me (strongly) to run the tests.

This will be my last wetpack tests until October. Too hot now. And granma has trips planned and visits from grandkids.

Cheers,
og and byron

[oldgranpa]

This picture shows wetpack results with the P3AT for the following rounds.....
1. Winchester ValuPak, 95gr. blunt nose FMJ
2. Winchester WinClean, 95gr. jacketed blunt lead nose exposed.
3. CorBon's new "Pow'rBall", 70gr. jacketed, plastic nose
4. Winchester "SilverTip", 85gr JHP
5. Speer "GoldDot", 90gr. JHP
6. Federal "HydraShok", 90gr. JHP
7. Remington "GoldenSaber" 102gr. JHP
8. CorBon 90gr+p JHP

Rounds 4 - 8 were previously tested and data shown in the Preliminary .380 wet pack report shown in the members only forum, "Preliminary .380 wetpack report....". Go to that thread for comparison.

[oldgranpa]

This picture is a comparison of the rounds shown above with my P3AT, 2.76"barrel, and a Bersa Thunder 380, 3.25"barrel. The photo is for a visual comparison only. Penetration with the Bersa was generally 1/2" to 1" better than the P3AT. Also note the Pow'rBall expanded with the Bersa as did the CorBon 90+p. A barrel longer than 3" seems to be needed for the CorBon stuff.

[oldgranpa]

This is the waterjug (1/2gallon plastic milk jugs measuring 4"deep) comparison for the CorBon Pow'rBall with a Golden Saber thrown in. The Pow'rBall did nothing in the water with the P3AT and not much with the Bersa. For a look at extensive waterjug tests go to http://stevespages.com/page8f.htm
(courtesy of a link from Stephen Camp's website). But it doesn't have the Pow'rBall.

[Flyer]

GREAT work as usual, oldgranpa and byron!
You've confirmed something I've been thinking about the Cor-Bon... it's apparently got a heavier jacket than normal, and needs the extra velocity to expand properly.
I admit, I don't really like the way the Powr'Ball fragments... but, that might not mean anything re actual stopping power.
At any rate, your tests show one thing, that my precious Hydra-Shoks still do as good a job as they ever did!
Thanks for the great work!
Flyer

[oldgranpa]

Sorry for the delay posting this last bit, thunderstorm here and a lightning flash knocked me off line.

But smileys??

Yes, I still get a little smiley when my P3AT get dirty. Reasons for this are discussed at length in the Smiley thread in the Members Section.

What?? You're reading this thread and not a member??!! Now's a good time to register.

Cheers,
og

[norfdet]

OG and Byron again much thanks for the great work. As I read the test, two things seem apparent. 1. there is not much difference in bullet performance between the P3AT and the Bersa and 2. The Golden Saber seemed to be a consistent performer in either pistol. I was disappointed to see how the power ball performed. If what Flyer says is correct it may be that the round will not be able to get enough velocity out of the P3AT to reliably expand the jacket. At any rate, it looks like I am switching back the the GS as a P3AT carry round.

[Bulbman]

somebody want to explain what smileys are to me?

when I did my own wetpack tests with phone books and corbon a while back, the corbon stuff really expanded well in my P232, so it must be the barrel

[flyandscuba]

OG & Byron,

Thanks for the hard work. I wish I had found this thread before I put all of the newspaper in the wash tub! Maybe I should just save this Pow'Rball stuff and go buy some Golden Sabers. That load appears to be THE carry round for the P-3AT.

Speaking of Golden Sabers, check out this Golden Saber .357 Sig. load offered by CNC Cartridge:

http://www.cnccartridge.com/357.htm

102gr Golden Saber 1700 fps & 653 ft/lbs.

[Flyer]

Bulbman,
Everything (and more) you ever wanted to know about smileys:
Smiley Encyclopedia
Flyer

[Midiman]

[byron]

lets send the kudos where they're deserved. ALL the hard work that we're reaping the benefit of is due to the considerable sweat and effort of o.g. thanks much o.g.

[oldgranpa]

byron,
you are too modest, it was your idea based on your range tests with the ValuPak that encouraged us both to do this. The ValuPak, with it's flat nose, looks like a mini .40cal round. A "Cool" looking round! I like it!! And you got no smiley with it, in a clean, unmodified pistol I assume.
Also, with my dirty pistol there is only a little ding in the photo.
We wanted to see if maybe it would mushroom a little and if it would overpenetrate. We threw in the Pow'rBall since scuba showed us where to order it. The ValuPak was our prime interest.
Everyone should note that the ValuPak round penetrated a maximum of 10.5". Using the approximate conversion of 2/3 for gelatin, this works out to around 15" for gelatin which meets published limits for avoiding overpenetration. In the Bersa the penetration was 12", equivalent to 18" gelatin and overpenetration would be expected. I won't carry the ValuPak in the Bersa and probably won't use it for practice since the Bersa has an aluminum feed ramp (part of the frame) and the flat nose bullet could ding it after time. I'm sure Flyer knows the Bersa is a different design, blowback pistol, and won't have smileys.

Someone might criticize us for not using denim over the wetpack like the FBI does with gelatin. We are not the FBI and may never have to shoot through car doors or windows or at felons dressed in heavy clothes. I've done tests in the past with a layer of denim over the wetpak and it makes very little difference. If you're a LEO, fine, go with the FBI data, your choice. (They still end up choosing the Fed HydraShok and Rem GoldenSaber, so why all the fuss. Besides, people aren't made of gelatin or wet papers either.)
So, byron, your thoughts that the ValuPak should be a good P3AT carry round is correct. Most writers also show that the flat nose design does a lot of internal damage as well, even though it doesn't mushroom.

So, the point is, if anyone can't decide on a carry round for their P3AT, try some of the Winchester .380 ValuPak. And you'll have enough for practice too, at less cost than 20 rounds of the expensive stuff. (The CorBon Pow'rBall is most expensive and ends up costing a $1 per round when you add shipping cost for one box.)

This was fun. And, scuba, please do the test with your wetpapers. It will add to the validity of all this.

og

p.s. I forgot to mention that there was no malfunction!! whatsoever!! with either the P3AT or the Bersa during this test. And I got no headbonkers with any of the ammo brands used either. My P3AT with the modified feed ramp fed the flat nose ValuPak and WinClean just fine. Extraction and exjection was 10 ft. behind me.
I don't recommend water jug testing. The first jug ruptures and explodes dramatically every time. I almost got wet! Wish I would have had a video of that!

and a Final p.s.
thanks, midi, for your support and carrying enough about this to put it together in one place. Maybe now people won't be so scared of wetpack data and be willing to try it themselves.

[flyandscuba]

OG,

I did a limited wetpack test in my garage last night. I experienced similar results. I posted a reply to my original 380 PowRball thread and included a photo of one of the bullets and a smiley on the PB.

I'm buying Golden Sabers for my P-3AT...

[packin heat]

thats some good work boys. you provide lots of usefull knowledge to us young "coots in training"

[Colorado Fatboy]

THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE INFO! I have been looking for something like this for quite some time. Hope you don't mind me spreading the word, I have posted links to this on a few other sites.

[Flyer]

Welcome to the Range, Colorado Fatboy!
Glad to have you aboard, and to be of use!
Flyer

[oldgranpa]

Colorado Fatboy,
welcome, and double welcome!! As you may know, I left glocktalk where you and I exchanged some friendly chats. The trolls there just got too much for my old brains. I deleted all my wetpack data on glocktalk too. So here on KTR is the only place it can be found.
Fine to place links on other sites. I'm pleased that you still care about my "unballistic" tests!
Maybe that will get more members to join here. We all work together. There are no 'experts' here at KTR. We are all learning. And there are no trolls here either. Our moderators are the best. Nobody flames anybody, we feel like brothers, and a few sisters, I might add.
The longer you stay here the more at home you feel. And as you've already noted, it's not just Kel Tec pistols discussed. The Other Guns section is one of the best.
Again, welcome, and looking forward to more good chats.
og

[KeysBear]

Great job oldgranpa,
And a great job by our other mad scientists. KTrange rules!

Regards, Keys 8)

[Colorado Fatboy]

Thanks for the welcomes!

OG, I do know what you mean about GT! There are a bunch of idiots over there for sure. This seems like a better place to hang out.

Doesn't matter if your tests are "non ballistic". I don't think it really makes too much difference. Just what do you use for these tests? Not sure what you mean by "wetpack".

[Colorado Fatboy]

Never mind the wetpack ? I found the thread in the other guns section that explained it all.

Thanks for the info. I'm going to give this a try some time soon.

[Midiman]

Try hitting the home button, then click on the articles section... it's all there. Anyone else reading this... we're more than just the discussion forums... if you deep link straight to them, you'll be missing some good information we're developing constantly.

[Wiley]

Would there be any benefit to puting a piece of 1/4" plexiglass a half inch or so in from the front of the stack to simulate bone (sternum, ribs)?

[Fignozzle]

Welcome Wiley!

I suspect maybe 1/4" plywood or particle board would simulate bone better than plexi.

Might be a worthwhile test in an of itself, but the key is just to be consistent with whatever media you're using.

Regards,
Fig

[KeysBear]

[flyandscuba]

Now he's eligible for the postal shoot!

[KeysBear]

[Fignozzle]

LOL!!!

[KeysBear]