The Kel-Tec Range

oldgranpa · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:54 pm Post subject: Smileys Revisited

During our first "Smiley" evaluations in 2003, 2004, we mainly tried to understand the problem and how to reduce or eliminate it. Flyer's ramp modification came first and we did that to our 1G P3AT pistols with considerable success. But even doing an extreme ramp mod on my 1G P3AT did not completely eliminate smileys. I found that the sloppy MecGar magazine furnished with the P3AT was partly responsible, allowing the top round to slip forward and be hit with the feed ramp. Not everyone agrees with me on this point, but the problem continues with the 2G P3AT as-received OutOfBox. During the first evaluations we failed to make hardly any measurements of setback being done to the cartridge by a smiley. We did lots of pictures and some of those early pictures are shown below...

oldgranpa · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:56 pm Post subject: ramps

Next, shown are typical feed ramp pictures with the 1G P3AT, with ramp mod on left, without on right...

oldgranpa · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:58 pm Post subject: the 2G ramp

Then, in 2005, KelTec adopted a partial ramp modification on the new 2G P3AT, not as severe as we were doing on the 1G, but enough to eliminate the damage being done to the magazine follower after the last round was fired. Here's a picture of the 2G feed ramp, showing the half moon cutout..

oldgranpa · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:01 pm Post subject: 2G smileys

When I received my new 2G P3AT and fired it I was disappointed that it still produced small smileys. Again, I failed to make good measurements for setback being produced. I did do one measurement showing the setback was low enough to be acceptable. Reports of first tests with the 2G P3AT and attempts at magazine modifications are in the P3AT forum here http://ktrange.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=4539 . Pictures of my 2G smileys follow...

oldgranpa · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:05 pm Post subject: some new 1G smileys

Wanting to know the true effect of smileys and how the 2G P3AT compares to the 1G (unmodified), I obtained an unmodified 1G P3AT for some setback smiley tests. The results show that smileys with the 1G (unmodified) did produce severe setback. Here's a few pictures....

oldgranpa · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:08 pm Post subject: final tests with my 1-1/2G P3AT

I made a few more tests and measurements, then did a ramp modification equal to the mod on a 2G P3AT. Subsequent tests showed a significant improvement.. Legend and measurements for the following picture follow...

The .380acp cartridges just below the numbers are unfired, new, with no smiley, for comparison. Cartridges above the numbers are with the 1G unmodified P3AT. Cartridges below the new, unfired, show smileys with the modified feed ramp (equal to 2G) that I call my 1-1/2G P3AT. It's obvious that all ammo brands are not the same. Ammo brand and setbacks are:

1. Fed HydraShok, 90gr JHP, 1G, .009", 1-1/2G, .003"
2. Rem UMC FMJ, 95gr, 1G, .050" & .060", 1-1/2G, .007" .005"
3. Win BEB, 95gr flat nose, 1G, .020", 1-1/2G, .012"
4. Speer GD 90gr, JHP, 1-1/2G, no setback
5. Fed AmerEagle 95gr FMJ, 1-1/2G, .022"
6. Win USA 95gr flat nose, 1-1/2G, .004" & .010"
7. Rem GS 102gr JHP, 1-1/2G, no setback
8. Hornady XTP 90gr, JHP, 1-1/2G, .007"

I am saving all smiley cartridges from this test for firing with a chronograph when I have access to one. In the meantime, a few conclusions are:
A. The 1G P3AT unmodified produces severe smileys that could be dangerous someday.
B. A modified 1G (1-1/2G) P3AT feed ramp pistol produces marginal smileys, probably of no concern for safety.
C. The 2g P3AT still produces smileys but are within acceptable range.
D. The sloppy MecGar magazine is responsible for continued smileys but it's doubtful KelTec is concerned since the feed ramp on the 2G doesn't hit the follower anymore. It's obvious MecGar has no quality control or tolerances on their mags.

Flyer · Senior Member Joined: 25 Nov 2003 Posts: 6053

There ya go, my friend. Cool

Flyer

markster · Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:40 am Post subject:

OG, I'm getting about the same kind of setback on my SG P3AT as you are getting on the unmodified 1G P3AT. Looks like I'm gonna have to do a little work to it.

oldgranpa · Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:43 pm Post subject: more info, please!

hi, markster, very important....
please tell us more...what ammo brand, type, etc.?
and do you get a big dent or just the nicks on the sides of the bullet?

I found on the 2G P3AT that the half moon cutout on the ramp was probably deep enough, but KelTec left enough of the "ears" on the sides to cause nicks on the sides of flat nose bullets, as shown in some of the pictures above.

I had to grind off some of the "ears" on mine with the dremel to reduce that, and of course, re-polish the edges.

On the other hand, if that doesn't help, you may have received a really "loose" magazine with your pistol. Do the test I mention in the link above to see how bad it is. Just hand cycle a round, remove the magazine and note if the top round is pushed forward with its nose over the front of the magazine. It gets worse with a dirty pistol as the long ramp in the slide gets sooty. (I polished that ramp in mine too.)

Not much else you can do except tinker with the mag like I did trying to "tighten" it up. The steel they used is hard and stiff and doesn't bend very easy. I cracked one mag trying to tighten it in my vise.

Or you can just order several mags, from KT, or several online shops have them, and maybe you will get a tight one. I got one tight mag that way and it really helped. (Which proved to me that MecGar has no tolerance specs and no quality control.)

For those who care enough (like my good friend, Flyer) to read this thread...let me just say I didn't post all smiley pictures from this series, just the ones I had some setback measurements on. If you are bored with just shooting paper targets, get out there and try some smiley tests for a little fun.

And, BTW, if you have a 1G unmodified P3AT and are reading this, get help with a ramp modification before Murphy's Law gets you. Especially with some of the hot ammo in use.

Cheers,
og.......who gets bored shooting stupid paper targets.

byron · Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject:

og, i believe i mentioned in a previous post that after the mod i still got just the tiniest nicks on opposite edges of the flat meplat wwb white box valu pak. i did not shorten the length of the ramp, just filed in the crescent to accomodate the nose of the bullet. that also effectively stopped damage to the follower. if you know which round nose solid suffers the worst deformation let me know. i will buy a box and test them in my gun.

markster · Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject:

I'm getting a full smiley og. I'm using the Santa Barbara and I think Magtech. I'll post pictures from both 2g's this weekend.

mr surveyor · Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:04 pm Post subject:

OG,

don't smack me too hard for what may be a really dumb question, but are the setbacks you have so accurately documented over the last few years one of the causes of FTE's in the P3AT (due to abnormal case swelling)?

TucsonMTB · KTranger Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 755 Location: Tucson

oldgranpa · Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:02 pm Post subject: trying to answer

first, byron, get a box each of Fed American Eagle FMJ 95gr (red box) and a box of Rem UMC FMJ 95gr (green/white box).
See what kind of smileys and setback you get. You'll need a caliper of some type to measure OAL before and after. Since .380acp rounds are just under 1" at about .95 - .97" I use my micrometer.

second, markster, I'm real concerned that you might have a loose magazine. Try the little test, cycle a round, remove mag and note it top round had moved forward over the mag lip.

third, surv, by gosh you may have something there for sure!! the setback is going to cause some increase in chamber pressure that may swell the cart case more than usual. I have no clue as to how to determine that except with a chronograph and some comparitive calculations which I may be able to do later. With a weak extractor and dirty chamber the case would stick and FTE. I fired a bunch of rounds in succesion with my 1-1/2G P3AT without pulling a round and had no FTE's. But I had cleaned the chamber with 600grit emery paper beforehand.
I did not fire succesive rounds when the pistol was still 1G since I knew there'd be setback. (The FTE's I had before I sent it back to KelTec were due to a bad extractor and not case swelling since it FTE'd the first round every time)

hi, Tucson, I'm lucky to have a good range where I can "play".

Cheers,
og...........we still need to evaluate smileys on JHP expansion, but that will have to wait.

oldgranpa · Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:24 pm Post subject: Final tests

Got to the range this morning to do the final chronograph test and limited wetpack on the smiley rounds shown in the photo above. Typical Chrony values look like this..

Rem UMC 95gr FMJ
fresh ammo, no smiley, 814.6fps, 824.2fps, avg 819.4fps
rounds with smileys from 1G (no mod) feedramp, setback shown first
.050", 841.2fps
.060", 821.2fps
.0175", 820.6fps
.0085", 841.8fps average of 4 shots 832.2fps, increase over fresh ammo only 1.01%

rounds with smiley from 2G type feed ramp, setback shown first
.007", 794.3fps
.005", 800.8fps insignificant change.

Fed AmerEagle 95gr FMJ
fresh ammo, no smiley 819.1fps
with .022 setback, 872.1fps a 1.06% increase

Win USA 95gr FMJ flat nose
fresh ammo, no smiley, 809fps
ammo w/smileys, setback shown
.0045", 827.2fps
.010", 793.4fps max increase only 1.02%

Fed HydraShok 90gr JHP
fresh ammo, 871.6fps
round with a nick, .009" setback, 885.3fps 1.01%

So with the maximum velocity increase from setback of 1.06%, the chamber pressure should rise from 21,500psi SAAMI to approx 22,790psi. This is well within limits for the 1.8 safety factor built into the P3AT barrel.

Therefore we can conclude that even with worst setback from a smiley there should be no safety problem. Of course this comes with a disclaimer that some day there may be an anomoly and worse setback than seen here with dire consequences. Murphy's Law is always a concern. So if you have a problem don't say I said it wouldn't happen. Better to do the ramp mod if you haven't.

Now for the wetpack test on the JHP rounds from the smiley testing shown in the photo. I am not showing a photo since nothing new happened . All JHP rounds went the full 9" penetration in the wetpack. The FMJ round went 10+ stopping in the plywood backstop.
Fed HydraShok expanded.
Speer GoldDot expanded fine.
Rem GoldenSaber expanded with one petal unfolded.
Hornady XTP only partially expanded like previous tests.

These rounds had minor smiley nicks from the feed ramp "ears" and minimal setback. All had been fired from the 2G type feed ramp in my P3AT.
Conclusion? It appears minor nicks on a JHP round, with a 2G type feed ramp, do not affect normal expansion.

(Note: I still get a smiley with a round nose, FMJ round, when my pistol gets dirty and sooty after shooting about 20 rounds. That's normal. A clean pistol, with the ramp mod, and good JHP ammo (like Fed, GD, or GS) should be fine. I don't recommend carrying FMJ in the P3AT for CCW, self defense anyway.)

Cheers,
og..........not worried anymore about the P3AT, with a feed ramp mod, that is.

TxCajun · Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:37 pm Post subject:

Good work OG! Looks like the smilies just gain you a bit of pressure but nothing extreme with no loss in expansion.

Just curious whether you fired any smiling rounds from the 1st gen unmodified barrel to check for expansion. Those barrels seemed to be the worst offenders.

pocketgun · Site Admin Joined: 23 May 2005 Posts: 5212

Excellent work OG! I have recorded the non-smiley velocities in my P3AT ammo chart.

jimls · Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:37 pm Post subject: Revisiting Smileys

oldgranpa · Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:05 pm Post subject: great!

hi, jimls,

that sounds great! Is there anyway you can post a picture.
You may have "saved the day"!

og

jimls · Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:14 pm Post subject: Smileys Revisited

Oldgranpa,
I'm on the road now, will try to post pictures this weekend.
Jim

oldgranpa · Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:19 pm Post subject: 1G

hi, Tx,
I'm sorry I was so stingy with this test. The only 1G JHP smiley I had was the Fed HydraShock round. And I used it for the Chrony comparison. The "2G" Fed HS round with a small nick expanded fine in the wetpack, as did GoldDot and GoldenSabre with nicks.

I wonder if I could buy just a 1G barrel from KT for more testing.
I guess I didn't have a very good plan for this series of tests. Too big a hurry, I guess. Also, if anyone has a 1G barrel, just the barrel, to sell me, let me know.

And, if anyone has a 1G unmodified P3AT and can produce some JHP smilies and send them to me, I will be happy to do a wetpack test on them for comparison of expansion, etc.

The problem I had doing this was the Chrony needed to be at 9 feet to get good readings. I was unable to set the wetpack up behind it at that distance and be assured of hitting the wetpack and not hitting the posts on the Chrony. So I chickened out and just shot the wetpack separate.

Oh, well, we got a little data anyway. And I was more interested in what the "2G" ramp would do. I sure don't recommend staying with a 1G unmodified pistol.

og....who never made a mistake before Rolling Eyes

oldgranpa · Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:40 pm Post subject: fps

hi, pocketgun,

my readings are a bit lower than what few readings I've seen elsewhere for short barrel 380s. Especially lower than what NAA posts on their website for the Guardian 380. Makes me wonder if NAA upped the numbers to make their 380 look better.

I'll do more work on this later when the weather ain't so miserable. High humidity and warm out there this morning and by the time I finished it was already hot and I was wet with sweat.

The Chrony works best in late morning with good sun and it's already in the high 80's early morning here right now. I'll probably wait 'till September when it cools off to do this again. Then I'll compare the P3AT with my Sig P232 longer barrel.

Right now, the "Shooting Chrony" (trademark) is on sale at many online dealers. If you've ever wanted one, now is a good time to order.

Cheers,
og

Midiman · Site Admin Joined: 25 Nov 2003 Posts: 3630

Excellent work... I see a new article coming (for those of you not familiar with our article's section).

pocketgun · Site Admin Joined: 23 May 2005 Posts: 5212

OG, your numbers are actually pretty well in line with some of the other results I have been given. Most of the ammo mfgs use 3.75" or 4.00" for their test barrels, and it plainly makes a difference. Also, I strongly suspect the batch of ammo tested, and even test pistol make a small difference. Out of the 75 or so loads available in .380ACP, I have P-3AT data on 9. When I start to have a significant number of loads chronographed, I will publish a P-3AT specific version of the ammo charts I have already posted. Keep those velocities coming when you can.

My 1G P-3AT has an unmodified barrel - I will see if I can collect some smileys for you. Now that my pistol is 100%, it is not often that I inspect the ammo in the mags after the first round is fired.

oldgranpa · Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:19 pm Post subject: great!!

OK, pocket,

you are now on the hook!! wonderful news, saves me a lot of trouble.

I will be expecting several kinds of JHP ammo with smilies so we can do a special wetpack with them. I will shoot them, one at a time with my P3AT. As soon as you are ready, just pm me for a mailing address.

Cheers,
og

oldgranpa · Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:26 pm Post subject:

Midi,

you are the cause of all this excitement. It was your wisdom that got this kind of stuff started in the Articles Section in the first place. And the way you set up this site so we could post pictures. Without that there would have been no encouragement to continue the tests.

And it's still my greatest laugh. It was the way you titled the section, "Marshall Free Zone" that got me banned from Evan's stoppingpower site. (One of my proudest accomplishments!!) He's still pissed off at us, which is wonderful, really.

Hat's off to Midi!! cheers

og

pocketgun · Site Admin Joined: 23 May 2005 Posts: 5212

oldgranpa

Quality control with factory ammunition seems to be a variable that will affect smiley setback and resulting velocity increase, depending on OAL of the cartridge. Another unkown factor is the exact amount of powder and how it varies in cartridges. Sure, there is what's called "match" ammo, but I don't have any.

Here are a few examples from boxes of ammo I've purchased. The SD (std.deviation) numbers are per box measured.

Rem UMC 95gr FMJ..varies for 2 boxes from .962" to .969" avg OAL with a SD of .004" each box

Win ValPak 95gr flat nose..fairly consistent at .950" OAL with a SD of .0014"

Fed AmerEagle 95gr FMJ..for 2 boxes, .966" to .971" avg OAL with SD of .001"

Rem GS 102gr JHP...from one box, .950" avg OAL with a SD of .0012"

Fed HS PD 90gr JHP...varies for 2 boxes from .937" to .943" avg OAL with a SD of .001"

Speer GD 90gr JHP...fairly consistent from 2 different lots at .942" avg OAL with SD .001"

Win SXT 95gr JHP...fairly consistent from 2 boxes at .942" avg OAL with SD .001"

CorBon DPX 80gr copper...varies for 2 boxes from .942" to .947" avg OAL with SD .0013"

It appears Rem UMC, being the cheapest FMJ available has poorest quality control and OAL varied the most in each box. Speer GoldDot and Win SXT showed up the best.
Surprising was how the new CorBon DPX varied for the 2 boxes I had available to measure.

So when we do the next smiley evaluation it will be interesting to see how much variation shows up from the first test.

If this info was boring, so is the weather here right now. Too hot for the range so all I can do is play with some ammo.

og.....who is boring anyway.

(If you thought this was boring, be glad I didn't post the micrometer reading for each cartridge I measured. Razz

However, if anyone wants those numbers, send $10 and SAE for a reply.)

TxCajun · Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:04 pm Post subject:

I think that's interesting info OG and appreciate the time and effort to dig for the details. I find it ironic that Rem UMC seems to be a universally reliable round in the P3AT. It must be some other characteristic that makes it so, as obviously it is not uniformity of OAL. Confused

oldgranpa

Here are the results of final smiley tests by pocketgun & oldgranpa... 3 pages of stuff...

Page 1.

These are the 1G P3AT smileys made by pocketgun for our wetpack and Chrony test. You can enlarge the picture for more detail, but you can see the nicks on the sides of the JHP rounds and the deep dents on the FMJ rounds. Legend, OAL, and setback is as follows...

A. Rem GoldenSabre 102gr JHP
1. new round (avg OAL .947")
2. new round bullet view
3. smiley .949", bullet squeezed longer!
4. smiley .949", bullet squeezed longer!

B. Fed HydraShok 90gr JHP
1. new round (avg OAL .944")
2. new round bullet view
3. smiley .938", setback .006"
4. smiley .941", setback .003"

C. Speer GoldDot 90gr JHP
1. new round (avg OAL .941")
2. new round bullet view
3. smiley .938", setback .003"
4. smiley .939", setback .002"

D. Fed AmerEagle 95gr FMJ
1. new round (avg OAL .963")
2. new round bullet view
3. smiley .948", setback .015"
4. smiley .938", setback .025"

E. Rem UMC 95gr FMJ
1. new round (avg OAL .961")
2. new round bullet view
3. smiley .934", setback .027"
4. smiley .925", setback .036"

The next picture will show the results of wetpack tests on these rounds.