The Kel-Tec Range

[oldgranpa]

Page 2...


Here are the results of the wetpack tests with pocketgun's 1G P3AT smileys. Although his setbacks were not as severe as some I made with a 1G AT that I had, the results were nevertheless detrimental to the JHP rounds. The dents and distortion to the hollow point nose and cavity caused lack of good expansion in both Federal HydraShok and Speer GoldDot. Only the Remington GoldenSabre seemed to expand in spite of smiley damage. A Winchester SXT round with a 1 1/2G AT smiley also failed to expand. With a smiley from a 1 1/2 or 2G, the Speer GD did OK. (A 1 1/2G is a "flyer cut" feed ramp in a 1G P3AT pistol, equal to a 2G ramp.)
The only conclusion I can reach is that a 1G, unmodified P3AT will not produce good results with JHP ammo, except maybe the Rem GoldenSabre. Note that FMJ ammo penetrated 12" and stopped at the plywood backing. This would result in overpenetration with the P3AT (equiv. to approx 18"gelatin). Therefore, those that say use FMJ for CCW in the P3AT are taking a big chance. And using JHP in a 1G unmodified is like using very expensive, low penetration FMJ.
The bottom row, row 3, in the picture shows plain rounds fired with a NAA Guardian 380 for comparison.
Legend for the picture....(rows 1 and 2 fired with a 2G P3AT, one round at a time loaded by hand.)

A. Rem GS 102gr JHP
row 1 plain rounds, no smiley, .571"exp, 6"penet. and .565"exp, 7+"penet.
row 2 1G smiley, .549"exp, 7+"penet.
row 3 NAA plain, .572"exp, 6"penet.

B. Fed HS 90gr JHP
row 1 plain rounds, no smiley, .444"exp. 8"penet. and .445"exp. 8"penet. shed jacket at 5"penet.
row 2 1G smiley, .360"partial, 8"penet. 1 1/2G and 2G smileys, .376"partial, 8" penet.
row 3 NAA plain, .512"exp. 9"penet.

C. Speer GD 90gr JHP
row 1 plain rounds, no smiley, .469"exp., 7+penet. and .470"exp, 7+"penet.
row 2 1G smiley, .352"partial, 8"penet. and 2G smiley, .473"exp., 8"penet.
row 3 NAA plain, 453"exp., 8"penet.

D. Win SXT 95gr JHP
row 1 plain round, no smiley, .575"exp., 7"penet.
row 2 1 1/2G smiley, .353"partial, 8+"penet.
row 3 NAA plain, .570"exp., 6"penet.

And the FMJ was Rem UMC 95gr with 12"penetration stopped at plywood backing.
Sorry, we didn't have CorBon DPX available for this test.

I will post the Chrony velocity readings separately.
og....you can enlarge the picture a time or two for more detail.

[oldgranpa]

and Page 3, the Chrony readings....

And here are some Chrony readings with plain rounds, and 1G smiley rounds, made using a 2G P3AT by loading 1 round at a time by hand. (So as not to produce a smiley or make it worse.)
Also, a reading with the NAA Guardian 380.

The Chrony is fairly accurate and shows why plain Factory ammunition is not "match" ammo with velocity changing from round to round. Draw your own conclusions.

P3AT readings...fps mean and SD shown. Where no SD, only 1 reading was made.

1. Rem GS 102gr JHP
a. plain rounds, no smiley, 856.3, 13.7

2. Fed HS 90gr JHP
a. plain rounds, no smiley, 861.0, 18.4 (and a previous test, 871.6fps)
b. a previous test in July, 2006, smiley .009"setback, 885.3fps

3. Speer GD, 90gr JHP
a. plain rounds, no smiley, 895.9, 6.5
b. 1G smiley round, .003"setback, 878.1

4. Fed AE 95gr FMJ
a. plain rounds, no smiley, 861.9, 14.1 (and a previous test, 819.1fps)
b. 1G smiley, .015" setback, 823.0 (and a previous test, smiley .022"setback, 872fps)

5. Rem UMC 95gr FMJ
a. plain rounds, no smiley, 875.0, 2.9 (and a previous test, 819.4fps different box!!)
b. 1G smileys, .027&.036"setback, 870.6, 26.6 (and a previous test, 832.2fps)

6. Win RangerT 95gr JHP
a. plain rounds, no smiley, 890.2, 1.5

7. Rem UMC/leadless, 95gr FNEB
a. plain rounds, no smiley, 894.3, 13.8

8. Geco 94gr FMJ
a. plain rounds, no smiley, 812.3, 20.9

9. S&B 92gr FMJ
a. plain rounds, no smiley, 840.3, 9.4

10. Independence 90gr FMJ
a. plain rounds, no smiley, 852.4, 28.1

11. Win SXT 95gr JHP
a. plain round, no smiley, 885.9

Rounds 6. thru 10. were extra furnished by pocketgun for Chrony tests, no smileys.

And here is my test of UMC 95gr FMJ, 6 rounds with the NAA 380....831.5fps mean, SD 27.2
(NAA's own test of UMC got 860fps mean, SD 17....each box of ammo differs!!)

What does all this mean? Like I said, draw your own conclusions. But you can be sure that factory ammo is not "match" ammo and shouldn't be treated as such. Don't be surprised if your accuracy is not as good as you'd like it to be.

og

Closing remark...I don't think we have to worry about chamber pressure with smileys. But smileys with the unmodified 1G P3AT sure do seem to hurt JHP ammo.

[Bob O.]

Thanks for the tests!!

I always thought that smileys would cause poor expansion in hollowpoints. Now you've pretty much proved it!

Now I'm really curious about how badly smileys affect Cor-Bon DPX. The petals on the DPX seem quite thin and would probably tend to deform more than the more solid petals on other hollowpoints.

[oldgranpa]

hi Bob O.

I really do wish we had some DPX in our test. I no longer have a 1G P3AT.

So, if anyone has a 1G P3AT, unmodified feed ramp, and can make up some smileys with DPX, send them to me, I will include them in the next wetpack and Chrony tests.

OH, and BTW, nobody needs my permission to do your own smiley/wetpack test on JHP ammo. Our test is just 1 data point. If someone could repeat it with similar results, then we'd really have something.

og....who ain't perfect.

[pocketgun]

Awesome work og! I have to say that I am quite surprised that the smileys had that much of an effect. It makes me think that maybe a ramp mod is in my P-3AT's future after all.

Thanks for all the chrono results as well - I have added them to my tables. Interesting that the SXT and Ranger T were only 5fps different. A little marketing hype perhaps?

I am not surprised at the large standard deviations with the cheap practice ammo (Independence, Geco, American Eagle). The Hydra Shok and UMC were surprising here too, as I would have expected a smaller spread with the HS and a bigger one with the UMC. Box to box, the spread on the UMC seems to be quite large, however. I would have like to have seen a smaller SD with the Golden Saber.

No surprise that the UMC LeadLess was so hot, at least not to me who has shot it. For those who can't find Santa Barbara but still insist on non-expanding ammo, it might fit the bill. I have heard the shelf life of lead free primers isn't too long, however (10 years IIRC). This box was at least two years old.

[oldgranpa]

The Chrony is a lot of fun. I will be doing more as I have time and ammo to burn. For the low price of a Chrony, anybody with a range and time to shoot, it is great fun. Really shows the truth about ammo claims. Like the Win SXT was about the same as more expensive, hard to find Ranger T. Looks like same bullet to me. All you need is the basic Chrony model, going for around $80 now. The readout is small and a little hard to see at 10' away so I use small binocs at the bench, then I don't have to get up to read the display.
All you have to do before shooting thru the Chrony wires is verify your POA and POI so you don't hit the Chrony. In spite of that, shooting as many rounds as I did, one bullet just barely nicked one of the wires. Bent it back in shape easily.
Sunlight and distance from your pistol affects readings also. A partly cloudy day is best.
Cheers,
og

[pocketgun]

Another thing the wetpack test seems to confirm is that any type of non-expanding ammo will easily penetrate as deeply as anyone could hope for. It would seem to make more sense to use something other than velocity as a selection criteria here. Quickest follow-up shots, least blast (or most blast), lowest standard deviation, etc., could be a big part of the selection for someone going the FMJ/FNEB route.

[oldgranpa]

And here's the latest smiley test, maybe the last. This will answer the missing CorBon DPX question.

PTLNSC provided a set of .380acp smileys made with his 1G unmodified P3AT to primarily complete our wetpack and Chrony tests with CorBon DPX ammo. Included with his set were Rem GoldenSabr and Winchester Ranger ammo with smileys. The picture below shows his smileys compared to original rounds I included without smileys. Column A is CorBon DPX 80gr copper, B is the Win Ranger 95gr, and C the Rem GoldenSabr 102gr. Row 1 and 2 are the plain rounds with no smiley and rows 3 and 4 show smileys, a little hard to see, but the damage and setback is there. A small picture showing detail of the CorBon smiley with out-of-roundness is also shown here. More smiley rounds, not shown, were sent to me for the Chrony tests. Setbacks will be shown with the Chrony readings. Next shown will be the wetpack results.

[oldgranpa]

The picture below shows the wetpack results with PTLNSC's smileys with a plain round, no smiley also shown. Included in the top "X" row are smileys made with my 2G P3AT ("flyer cut ramp") using what I call a "loose" magazine that allows the rounds to slide forward in the magazine (which would be a worst case). Column A is the CorBon DPX, B is Rem GoldenSabr, C is Win Ranger. Each round was shot by loading them 1 at a time with my P3AT into the wetpack. Note the Columns are not in same order as last picture.

You can see the results. Row 1, all three expanded nicely with plain, no smiley ammo. Expansions .624"CorBon, .645"Ranger, .620"GoldenSabr all with penetration 8".

Row 2, .485"CorBon partial expansion, 8"penet. Rem GS poor, 9"penet. Ranger, .611"exp, 8" penet.

Row 3, .521"CorBon partial exp, 8" penet. Rem GS poor, 9" penet. Ranger, .610"exp, 8"penet.

Row X, the 2G smileys, CorBon .599"exp, 8" penet. Rem GS .570"exp, 8" penet. UMC FMJ 12+" penetration.

Another, plain UMC 95gr FMJ, no smiley, not shown had 12+"penetration all the way to the plywood backing.

From this it appears that a 1G unmodified P3AT will cause damage to most brands of JHP that severly affects performance (see also previous test with pocketgun's smileys....). The results differ from our previous test with pocketgun's smileys with the Remington GoldenSabr. All P3AT's are not necessarily the same in how they produce the smileys and setback. The Ranger ammo did unusually well in this test.

[oldgranpa]

PTLNSC .380acp 1G Smileys, Chrony readings...

CorBon DPX 80gr copper
....plain, no smiley.... 1013 fps
....1G smiley, setback .009", .....1046fps

and a smiley made with my 2G P3AT,
....2G smiley, setback .004", .....1040fps


Rem GoldenSabr, 102gr
....plain, no smiley.....856fps and 860.3fps
....1G smiley, setback .005", .....826.6fps and 811.2fps


Win Ranger 95gr JHP
....plain, no smiley.....890.2, SD 1.5 from previous test
....1g smiley, setback .010", .....847.5fps

and 2 rounds of plain Win SXT 95gr....800.3fps and 845.3fps


base case, 2 rounds of UMC 95gr FMJ,
....plain, no smiley,......896.2fps
....2G smiley, ............905.5fps


I know the Chrony readings look funny, but that's what you get with factory ammo, not consistent from one lot to the next. I think that causes different results in wetpack tests too. For the plain, no smiley tests, I used some of my ammo, a different lot from what PTLNSC sent me. The only velocities that went up with setback were with the DPX ammo and the UMC from the same lot. The Chrony was working fine. Having a Chrony is one of the most fun things you can do.

September 27, 2006 by oldgranpa

[pocketgun]

Excellent info as usual og! It amazes me how much variation there can be between lots - one more reason to load your own.

[PTLNSC]

Thanks OG, excellent pictures and discription. I hope others can see why we choose you to help us decide what ammo to carry.

[steve]

thanks again for doing all the research.

[oldgranpa]

I am not really surprised that factory ammo varies so much in velocity readings. The History Channel had a TV special called "Bullets" showing how modern ammo came to be and how it is manufactured. The Marine Corps sniper and competition group was featured showing them loading ammo. Every bullet was weighed and had to be within .1 oz, powder was weighed to the last little grain, cartridge cases had to be exact length, OAL had to be exact, etc.
When you look at factory ammo as received, OAL varies from round to round. And after you fire it, the spent cases length varies from case to case. The only thing that is accurate is the case diameter. Factory ammo is made on high speed machines that were amazing to watch in the TV special. No way factory ammo is going to get uniform velocity readings with the Chrony. No wonder accuracy suffers too.
Get you a Chrony and check your ammo. You will be surprised unless you load your own.

Here are some cartridge case measurements that show some of the variation...


Some .380acp cartridge data ........OAL,avg,SD...........................Fired Case length,typical

Rem UMC 95gr round nose.............0.962",.0039"....................................0.669"

Speer Lawman 95g round...................0.965".....................................0.667"

Win ValPak flat nose..........................0.950",.0014".....................................0.667"

Win ST 85gr.............................................0.945"......................................0.667"

Rem GS 102gr......................................0.949",.0012".....................................0.667"

Fed HydraShock PD 90gr.................0.940",.0005".....................................0.673"

Speer GD 90gr.........................................0.945"......................................0.669"

Hornady 90gr XTP..................................0.958........................................0.667"

Fed Classic Hi-Shok 90gr.....................0.928"......................................0.670"

CorBon 90gr+p.........................................0.948".....................................0.668"

Win SXT 95gr............................................0.945"......................................0.674"

MagTech FD 77gr copper.......................0.973".....................................0.672"

Fed AmerEagle 95gr FMJ....................0.966",.0008"....................................0.672"

CorBon DPX 80gr copper.......................0.945".....................................0.671"

Win Ranger T 95gr ................................0.946", .0015"...........................0.668"


I don't have enough money and time to shop for different lots of all ammo. It sure would be fun to do that and check measurements and the do velocity tests. The factorys that make ammo are ripping us off with poor quality control.

og